We are our own worst critics. As a result, we tend to ignore our feelings, pushing us to abandon ourselves. But this does not help us grow. Our feelings are our inner guidance, and when we genuinely love ourselves, it will guide us toward good leadership. In this episode, Dr. Margaret Paul, the Co-Creator of Inner Bonding®, shares how leadership development occurs when you transform your inner self at work and in life. She discusses the different steps toward your transformation by following the pathway to loving yourself. Margaret hopes everyone learns to see and value their intrinsic qualities as unique gifts rather than define our value by how we perform or what we accomplish. She also shares that when we learn to value and trust who we are, we won’t follow sociopathic leaders. So stay tuned to this insightful conversation and learn more from a remarkable member of the transformational leadership council!
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Transforming Your Inner Self At Work And In Life With Dr. Margaret Paul
In this episode, I welcome Dr. Margaret Paul, who is the co-creator of the Inner Bonding process. Welcome, Dr. Paul.
Thank you so much.
I first met Dr. Margaret Paul when I was looking to do some deeper work around my leadership and on this new chapter of my life, which is authoring the book Ignite Culture and raising my impact in the world. I knew there was something that I wasn't quite getting to and I couldn't get there with traditional coaching. I started working earlier in 2022. What I've learned for myself is whom I need to be for me first before I could look at whom others needed to be for me or whom I needed to be for others. Dr. Paul, I'd like you to talk a little bit about what is Inner Bonding. What does it have to do with helping people be better leaders?
Inner Bonding is a six-step pathway towards learning to love yourself, see who you are, deeply value yourself and learn how to take loving care of yourself. Most people have no idea what it means to love or truly care about themselves. They think, "Bath or get my nails done." That's not what it's about. It's mostly about learning to take emotional, physical, financial, relationship, spiritual and organizational responsibilities.
Many people never think in those terms. This process is very powerful as you're learning to help you tune in to what you need to be doing to take loving care of yourself. We train people in how to treat us. If we're abandoning ourselves, which most people have learned to do in many different ways, then we wonder why others are treating us badly. Others might be treating us very much the way we're treating ourselves. That's a big problem. Learning to see, value and treat yourself with love and respect goes a long way toward good leadership.
Let's talk about some real-life examples. Let's say I'm in a leadership role. I'm a CEO and the people on my executive team are having a hard time honoring the company values. When the rubber hits the road, there are no values. That's a typical person that I would coach. "Magi, I got to get people to do what I want them to do." How do you begin the process of, "People are not behaving in a way I want them to behave?" Are you saying that has to do with something with the way that I'm behaving?
It has to do with how you're treating yourself. Often leaders are very much in their heads. They're trying to control things on the external level but ignoring what they're feeling. Most people don't realize that our feelings are a source of inner guidance. Our feelings of anxiety, depression, guilt, shame, anger, aloneness, emptiness, annoyance, jealousy and things like that are letting us know that we're abandoning ourselves.
We may be judging ourselves, ignoring our feelings and turning to various addictions, food, alcohol and drugs. We may be handing our feelings over to other people to get their approval and making others responsible for whether or not we feel okay about ourselves. Whether we feel worthy, lovable or okay. These are all forms of self-abandonment. When people are doing that, then there's no way that others are not picking that up. If you're not honoring your values and not respecting who you are, how can you expect other people to do that?
Let's be super specific. Let's say in my company, I have a challenge around accountability, which is true. I've been working on it since 2021. I'll say, "This is my standard. This is what I need people to do.” I attract a lot of clients who are the same way. “This is what I need to be done." I also have this competing thing that people have to like me. I want them to want to work for me. If I hold them accountable, they might say, "Screw you. I'm out of here. I don't need this kind of hassle every day." How do you reconcile that? Use me as an example. I need people to perform. I have goals. Sometimes I'm not even conscious that I want people to want to be here. I have this fear as if I hold them accountable, especially when they're not doing what I need them to do, then that'll create conflict.
The need to have people like you and approve of you is coming from what I call self-abandonment. It means that you are not deeply seeing, valuing, liking and approving of yourself. Self-judgments are going on. You're handing over to your employees the responsibility to make them feel like you're okay. This is energetic. It's not like people are talking about doing that. It's energy.
When you're needing approval from your employees, they feel it and lose respect. We always lose respect for people who pull on us for their approval, tiptoe around and don't hold us to the standards that we've said we need. You lay out the standards but then you don't say anything. You're afraid of what they're going to feel. They pick up that energy.
They know they can get away with it at that point because you're abandoning yourself. This is a very big issue for most people. They don't realize that the ways that they're abandoning themselves are getting reflected by the people around them. You're not keeping to your standards. Why should they? You're not respecting yourself. Why should they?
It's interesting because Patrick Lencioni is a business guru guy with The Five Dysfunctions of a Team and The Five Temptations of a CEO but he also talks about this thing called artificial harmony. Dr. Fernando Flores talks about cordial hypocrisy. It's two sides of the same coin. I say I want A but I step over it and then energetically, people are saying, "She doesn't want that."
They might not even say that but it's their feeling. How do I stop that? Most leaders are super frustrated around this thing, accountability. As soon as the economy takes a hit, then we're laying everybody off. For the audience, if they know they have this need for approval and they suck around accountability, what do they do about it?
This is what the inner bonding process is about. Anybody can learn this process. They can go to our website, InnerBonding.com. There are many books, courses and ways of learning the process. The first step is the willingness to move out of mental focus and into body focus. Virtually all of us, when we were kids, we learned to avoid our pain because we couldn't handle it by going up in our heads.
That's like having a baby, putting the baby to sleep, going out to lunch, not hearing the baby cry and the baby's going to be traumatized. You don't do that if you want to be a good parent. If you want to be a good inner parent, you don't stay up in your head and ignore your feelings. You are open to learning. This is basic to inner bonding. There are only two intentions.
Don't stay in your head, and don't ignore your feelings. Be open to learning.
You can either open to learning about how you're treating yourself, how you're abandoning yourself or what's loving to yourself. You can avoid that, protect and try and control other people to get them to do it for you. That's where you lose accountability with people. They can feel that pull and then lose respect. The first step is learning to get inside your body.
This was not easy for most people. It wasn't easy for me. I learned like you to try and get approval from other people and to be external. I was tuned into other people's feelings but not mine. It took a while for me to get inside my body, be aware of what I felt and then want responsibility for those. Step one is being aware and wanting responsibility.
Wanting responsibility, what does that mean? If I'm feeling taken advantage of, that's how I roll. If you work with me and you don't do what you're supposed to do but you charge me and I pay you, I feel like a victim because I'm paying you and you should do it.
You would breathe inside and become aware of the anxiety and stress of feeling like a victim and being taken advantage of. Wanting responsibility means you want to know what you are doing and how you're treating yourself that's allowing that to happen.
I'm not blaming my people for not being responsible. I’m looking at me.
That's right. You're looking at you. You're aware that you're feeling like a victim. You're upset and angry. You might be blaming them and you're feeling taken advantage of. You want to learn what you're doing. In step two, you are open to learning. You shift your intention from controlling to learning and from avoiding to learning. You focus on your heart. We teach people to open to their higher self, a higher form of love, truth, wisdom and strength and invite that in.
Learn what you're doing. Shift your intention from controlling and avoiding to learning.
In step three, we're going inside saying, "What am I telling you? How am I treating you? What am I doing or not doing?" That's putting you in this position of being taken advantage of. Very often what we're doing is a repeat of how we were treated by our parents or how our parents treated themselves. We absorbed into what we call our ego wounded itself all the ways of controlling, protecting and avoiding. We end up treating ourselves that way without realizing it. You would go inside and say, "How am I treating myself? What am I telling myself that's putting me in this victim position to be taken advantage of?" If you were to ask that of yourself, what do you think you would find on that inner level?
That's so interesting that you've asked because when you said learned behavior, I don't know if you said it just like that. I have a mom whom I love very much. She's super martyr-ish. She'll be the only person cooking on Thanksgiving when you can ask twelve people to help. She'll go over and over. She also was the kind of person who didn't pay herself very much money but always gave her employees bonuses and cooked for them. It's funny because I would say I'm nothing like her but when it comes to holding people accountable, I'll go way too long. Did you ask what I tell myself?
It sounds like what you're telling yourself is, "If I confront them, they're going to be mad at me and then leave me."
They'll tell people that I'm too hard on them.
As long as you're telling yourself that, then you're putting yourself in the victim's spot. You're making what they think of you more important than whether or not you're truly treating yourself with kindness, caring and respect. You're not when you're telling yourself, "We can't say anything. We have to give ourselves up. We have to be overly nice so that they'll like us." That's complete self-abandonment.
That's helpful, especially for people that are managing and leading others. Everybody does want to be free. People say, "I want autonomy in my job, personal empowerment and feel engaged." Let's take this conversation from the leader. There are a lot of people in the job market. A lot of people are looking for jobs. The tech sector has laid a ton of people off.
What I am reading about is that for every ad, 500 people are applying, not for lower levels but for professionals. How do I not abandon myself in the job search process? One of the things that I got into doing culture was I used to do recruiting. I could always tell the people who just wanted a job because their wife, their husband or their parent was going to kick them out of the house versus the people who had a calling and wanted to contribute.
How did you tell that? What were you picking up?
Their energy and all the superficiality of the way they answered the questions. There was no thought or depth of how they were answering the questions. It was almost like bad interview 101.
They were coming from here. They weren’t coming from their heart. You could feel when somebody’s looking for a job if they’re abandoning themselves. They’re not going to get the job because they’re coming from here. The other person can pick it up, even if they’re not aware of what they’re picking up. They’re going to be picking up how that person is treating themselves, how they’re feeling about themselves, that they don’t think they’re good enough, that they’ve got to impress this person. Whereas if they’re interviewing somebody who’s connected on the heart and soul level, who is with themselves, who values themselves, the other person’s going to pick that up and value them.
I would say from practical experience, half of the time, the interviewer is even present enough to pick up anything. This is how weird the world of work is. The person doing the interviewing is desperate to fill the job. They’re abandoning themselves because they’re butts in seats. The person interviewing for the job just wants a paycheck. They all get hired, have a miserable experience and do the circle over and over again. As a candidate, how do I stop that so that I can fulfill my heart’s desire through my work?
You can’t stop who the interviewer is but you can stop treating yourself badly. You can learn to see and value. We all have this incredible essence. This is what most people don’t know. We have this beautiful essence that is love, that has gifts, that is vital and alive, has a calling and is excited about life but if we’re coming from up here, we’re not accessing that. Most people don’t even know about that part of themselves.
Part of the inner bonding process is discovering who they are in their true soul essence. Whom they came in as, what their gifts are, what their calling is or what they’re excited about. Even if that person is out to lunch, you have an interview and you’re excited about who you are and what you’re offering, that person’s going to be impressed.
It sounds like it’s certainly the people doing the interviewing but the people looking for work need to do some homework of their own to connect with me at a deeper level to look at “Who am I? How can I make the difference that I’m meant to make,” before they even start doing interviews.
There’s a big difference between expressing who you are. You’re valuing yourself and expressing who you are to get value from somebody else. It’s a different energy. That’s why it’s so important to learn to value yourself before you go on an interview. They can go to the website. There’s a free seven-day course. There are plenty of books and other courses. They can learn. This doesn’t take forever. If they were to take a few weeks to learn how to value themselves, it’s going to take longer than that over time but at least to begin, they would do a much better interview.
What can be an exercise somebody could do to learn to value I? Is it the same thing you said about accountability?
I know you have kids. When you had a baby, did you value the baby?
I loved the baby.
Did the baby have to perform for you to love it?
No, because everything in me was so in love with this little creature. I felt like I was pulled magnetically to care for this child.
The child came in full of love. I remember when my kids were born, they were full of love and innocence. We didn’t know exactly who they were but all three of my kids were very different from the very beginning. I could feel a lot of their essence and value that they didn’t have to perform for me to value. Your kids didn’t have to perform for you to value them. That’s the same thing on the inner level.
We have to reach a place where we’re valuing who we intrinsically are. We don’t have to perform to have value. Most people define their value by how they look and perform and what their accomplishments are, rather than by their kindness, care, compassion, integrity, honesty, generosity and ability to love. These are intrinsic qualities and they’re special gifts. Everybody’s got special gifts that each person needs to learn to see and value. When you do that and you go for an interview, that energy is being transmitted and picked up. That interviewer will say, “This person’s amazing.”
Let’s go out of the interviewer and back into the leader. A lot of people are getting sick. I had a client who was out for the count for 2 weeks and specifically very sick for 5 days. He said he was laying on the couch. All he could deal with is the guilt that he felt for laying on the couch. This guy’s a CEO. He’s accomplished a lot and continues to accomplish a lot.
He said he was like wrestling with the angel and the devil. “You loser. Why are you laying around? You should be doing more.” He goes to work. Nobody was there. It was over the holiday. He gives a twelve-hour day. He goes back home and hits the couch. He can’t move because he relapsed. What is this monkey business where people, especially the hyper achievers, don’t give me a break to chill out?
One of the major ways of abandoning oneself is through self-judgment. That part that you’re talking about, that devil which we call the ego wound itself, is going to judge you. “What’s the matter with you? You’re a jerk. Get off the couch. You got to do better and accomplish.” It goes after us. That part wants to control. That person wants to control the outcome and how people feel about him. It’s all about control.
If his intention was to love, value and see himself, he would behave differently. He’s not even asking, “What’s in my highest good? What’s loving to me?” He’s pushing and judging. Guilt is one of the feelings. That’s called toxic guilt where he’s judging himself but he hasn’t done anything wrong. Guilt is an important feeling when we’ve done something wrong. Toxic guilt is when we’re judging ourselves and we haven’t done anything wrong.
That’s what he’s doing. He believes that kind of judgment is what he needs to do to be successful. Meanwhile, he’s making himself sicker. A lot of people do this. There are a lot of sick people. That’s one of the reasons they’re so sick. They’re abandoning themselves. Most people don’t like to tell people their age but I like to because I like to inspire people. I am a very healthy, vibrant old person.
Guilt is an important feeling when we've done something wrong. But toxic guilt is when we judge ourselves without doing anything wrong.
I work a lot but I don’t push and judge. My work is an expression of who I am on the inner level because I’ve done and continue to do my inner bonding work. That’s part of staying healthy and living a long life. There are several things we need to do. We need to eat well. I eat well. It’s also seeing, valuing and loving yourself that is so vital for health, aliveness, loving relationships and accomplishing what you want to accomplish. Being able to manifest your work without this judgment, pushing, losing yourself and giving yourself up. That’s not healthy.
That kind of toxic guilt and driving oneself into maybe the grave, is that how commanding control got so out of hand? As you’re speaking, I’m like, “Everything we train people not to be is doing that to others. You need to get it done.” This work ethic has gone crazy and people are abandoning their families.
That’s certainly how I was trained in a straight-commission job. If you’re not producing more than you did last month, you’re garbage. In the ‘80s, that’s how they used to talk to us. How do we connect the dots from, “I abandon myself because I’ve got this wounded child who has to perform,” and then that turns into how I manage and lead a company?
What happens when we abandon ourselves? We loathe ourselves. When we’re abandoning ourselves, we’re telling ourselves, “You’re a jerk. What’s the matter with you? You’re not good enough.” We’re loathing ourselves and projecting that out. What that ego wound itself does is project our feelings about ourselves onto others and then have to control them.
This happens in work, relationships and education where people are not taking good care of themselves and projecting their self-loathing. This is the basis of racism, sexism, misogyny and homophobia. It’s the basis of all of that, projected self-loathing from self-abandonment. That’s why it’s so important for our whole society to learn to see, value and love ourselves rather than abandon ourselves.
As you say it, I’m like, “It’s so simple. We have to get back to the basics of kindness, love and contribution.” You’ve got these leaders that are working on themselves. You probably don’t spend a lot of time on LinkedIn but in my field, I spend too much time on LinkedIn. There are always these notifications about how management is terrible and management is the culprit. I see both sides. I go into companies. I work with management and everybody else. Frankly, everybody is the solution and the problem. This projection thing is like, “I’m an angry employee. I complain to another employee. I get another employee angry.” Pretty soon, no matter what the manager does, they can’t win.
How do the regular everyday employees say, “Wait for a second. Maybe I need some inner bonding?” How do people even know if they need to do their spiritual development? I wasn’t sent to you as a coach. I was sent to you as a spiritual leader or teacher who could help me tap into my highest level of power. I already knew, though, that there was a higher level of power in me. I was like, “I’ll call her. Of course.” With the average everyday person, if everybody knew that they had a higher self within them, we wouldn’t have racism, systemic distrust and the political chaos that’s happening. How do people find out about this?
People seek it when they’re unhappy enough. They get sick enough, lose their job, lose their relationship or their kids don’t want to have anything to do with them. If something in their life, that’s usually when people find me and start to work with inner bonding. Everything that they’ve tried to do to control isn’t working. I get so many people who said, “I’ve been searching for 10, 15 and 20 years but I never learned to see and value myself.” That’s the problem.
A lot of people are seeking. A lot of people do want to heal but they don’t know how because they’ve never been taught a process. That’s what inner bonding is. Anybody who wants to can learn it. They don’t have to spend a lot of money to learn it. There are many ways. I want to encourage anybody reading who’s not happy. If you’re depressed or anxious, things are falling apart for you, you’re stressed out all the time and you don’t have good health, learn how to love yourself, connect with your higher guidance and access that source of love, wisdom, vitality and energy.
People often say to me, “How do you have so much energy? How do you get so much done in a day?” I get so much done. I don’t use much of my energy. I have learned to tap into this source of energy that’s infinite. It comes through and it energizes you. Anybody can learn to do that. That is available for everybody. It changes everything when you can tap into that source of energy, love, wisdom and strength.
You don’t need a Spiritual Psychology degree but in the basic coaching school, the first thing they teach us is that it all begins with having a relationship with our higher self. If you’re coaching somebody, the first thing you have to do is, “You get to do it. You don’t have to do it.” You’ll get way further with coaching if you have people to tap into that. I remember the first time that I heard that I was like, “How am I going to do this?” It’s so hard but the truth is it’s never been hard. Everybody’s waiting and wanting. If they sign up for a coach, they want to have a breakthrough.
There are a couple of secrets to this. First of all, people have to know that we’re born with the ability to connect in our upper right brain. Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, who’s a friend of mine, wrote Whole Brain Living. She’s a neuroscientist who talks about that. We’re naturally meant to access but it’s about frequency. Spirit exists at a higher frequency than we operate at. If we operated as fast as spirit, like a hummingbird’s wings, we wouldn’t see each other. We have to be able to raise our frequency to access that wisdom, strength and love that we need to know we’re not alone.
It takes two things. It took me quite a while to understand this. 1) We have to truly be open to learning. We cannot get there if our intention is to control. That tanks the frequency. It makes us feel miserable and we cannot get there from that space. We have to be open to learning about loving ourselves and sharing our love with others.
2) We have to keep our bodies clean. People used to access spirit easier many years ago because they were eating clean organic, natural food. The food industry came in and people started eating factory farm food, processed food and tons of sugar and chemicals. The body can’t handle this. This does not give the body the building blocks it needs. It lowers the frequency. Fortunately for me, I was a sickly kid and I learned in my early twenties, which was a long time ago, about good eating.
When a spirit brought in Inner Bonding, it helped me to understand the intention to learn. I always wanted to connect at will. Connection at will is important to me. I couldn’t do it until Inner Bonding and then I did. That’s because I was already eating well. It took me a while to understand that it takes those two things, the frequency of your body so that you’re taking physical responsibility for your health and well-being and the frequency of your mind, your intention. You will find that it’s very easy to access that guidance.
This is why people cleanse and meditate.
That’s right. They can meditate and connect but if the rest of the time, they’re abandoning themselves, they lose the connection for the rest of the day. Inner Bonding is an ongoing meditation where you’re conscious of your intention and open to learning rather than controlling. You’re conscious of what you’re putting in your body and how you feel. That’s the issue. It’s 24/7, just like with the baby.
You said something that reminded me of a quote. The guy’s name is Alain de Botton. He’s French. “The largest part of what we call personality is determined by how we’ve opted to defend ourselves against anxiety and sadness.” When I say that to people in the workplace, they’re like, “You’ve got to be kidding. My personality was not created because of sadness or anxiety.” Psychology, philosophy sociology and anthropology say differently. As children, when something happens, we do something and start creating this layering. Can you speak a little bit about that?
Personality, the way he may be defining it is how we define the wound itself, which usually people think that’s who they are because they don’t know who they are. That becomes the personality. That is created to defend against pain, anxiety, depression and sadness. That’s why we create it as children. We can’t handle those feelings when we’re little kids. If we don’t have somebody around to help us learn to handle those, we learn to avoid them and that is the personality. He’s 100% right about that. Often, people think that’s who they are. They are not their personality. They are their soul and they need to get to know that.
How do we tell the people running manufacturing companies or automotive companies that they are their souls?
Don’t tell them. We become whom we want ourselves to be. I let love, kindness, truth and integrity be my guiding light. That’s all I can do for myself. I can’t make other people do it but there’s something very important here and that is the more you learn to listen to and trust yourself, the less you follow others. If you think about, for example, Hitler, people followed him because they didn’t listen and trust themselves.
The more you learn to listen and trust yourself, the less you follow others.
This happens all over the world. People become followers of these sociopathic leaders or the heads of companies thinking they know what they’re talking about. When we learn who we are and we learn to value and trust who we are, we don’t follow. If everybody stopped following those people, we wouldn’t have the problems that we have.
In the book that I am writing, chapter two is all about taking a hard look in the mirror for leaders. I opened the chapter with a story about a guy standing in front of his employees, coming clean about what an asshole he’s been for the last several years and he’s weeping. This is a true story. I coached him for a year and then finally it was time that we took the executive team and they started bringing it to the rest. It was a very heavy manufacturing command-in-control like, “You are only as good as the last widget that you manufactured.” Up there, he’s asking for forgiveness and his boss was infuriated.
The whole story is rolled out in this chapter two. He was like, “Grown men don’t cry.” What happened in this company because of his leadership and counterpart’s leadership, not the big boss, is they went from a toxic, hateful two weeks away from a full walkout to a loving, kind, collaborative and the best five years on record. The big boss still would not embrace the principles of authenticity, kindness and generosity. It was against everything he stood for.
What’s interesting about this company is we worked with three divisions. All three had remarkable results but corporate is only interested in one thing and that’s profit. People still follow like sheep. This company has more lawsuits. People dying there. It’s amazing to me that the average everyday human being wouldn’t say something is wrong. Do you have any thoughts on why people keep following? Is it they don’t know any better?
I read a great book called The Sociopath Next Door. It was an eye-opener about the fact that 1 in 25 people, that’s 4% of the population, are a sociopath, which means they have no conscience. They can do anything without any guilt, shame and remorse.
Do they even know they’re doing it?
They know they’re doing it but they get joy out of winning. It’s only about winning. If you look around the world at so many people, for example, Putin, it’s about winning. It doesn’t matter how many people he hurts or kills. It doesn’t matter that he’s decimating a country. He doesn’t care. He’s a sociopath. Many of the heads of companies are or they’re narcissists and they have no empathy. They don’t care and they’ll do anything to get what they want. They’ll do anything to win. I once read another book, Good to Great. You’ve probably read that book by Jim Collins.
It's a great book. The real good companies are run by caring people, not by these narcissistic, controlling people. They’re the ones that went downhill. The ones that went from good to great are the ones that are kind and caring, take care of people and interview everybody to see what’s necessary for the company. That’s what makes a good leader. The problem is the rest of the people who don’t particularly want to be leaders have got to learn not to be followers. They need to follow their hearts, not a narcissistic or sociopathic leader. That’s what’s causing so many problems.
What a great way to put a period at the end of the sentence but I have one more question. How do you know if you’re working for a sociopath or a narcissist?
That’s why I suggest people read the book and begin to understand what these are. It’s not so easy to understand. I was brought up by two narcissistic parents. It took me many years as a therapist to understand that I was raised by two narcissistic parents. It’s not easy to see and people have to do their research. They have to learn about it to understand. I can’t just say, “Here’s how you know.”
I noticed a lot of people are accusing other people of being narcissists. Sometimes I read their blogs and I’m like, “You’re the narcissist.”
That’s right. Very often, they are and that’s the projection.
Thank you, Margaret Paul. How do people find you?
They can go to InnerBonding.com. They can contact us there. There are phone numbers and emails. There’s so much on the website. It’s a very big site. We offer a tremendous amount of information for people to learn about inner bonding.
Thank you for being a guest on the show. I appreciate your time. Thank you for the work you’re doing with me and all the people I touch. We’ll look forward to talking to you again.
About Dr. Margaret Paul
DR. MARGARET PAUL is a bestselling author of 12 published books, relationship expert, and co-creator of the powerful Inner Bonding® self-healing process. She has appeared on numerous radio and television shows, including Oprah., and has successfully worked with hundreds of thousands and taught classes and seminars around the world for over 50 years.
Margaret is a member of the Transformational Leadership Council.